Conversation With Mormons
Adrian: So how are you guys?
Elder Martinez: Good. How are you doing on Christmas eve?
(inaudible)
Adrian: It’s going alright. (looks at Devin) So I guess you’ll sit along?
Devin: Yeah.
Adrian: Alright, so lets recap from yesterday. Yes? (Elders Nod) I asked you for historical and apologetic material from you guys, so…what do you got?
Elder Weltz: Well as far as that, because we don’t really have access, since we don’t own a computer or anything right now, we don’t really have access, but we can refer you to some websites and stuff and you would be able to refer you better, and we will write those down for you. Does that sound good?
Adrian: That sounds great.
Elder Martinez: And so, besides those archaeological things that you wanted to see, what other kind of questions did you have, from what you read from the Book of Mormon?
Adrian: I haven’t cracked open the book yet, but I did do some research, because I do have a computer, and access to internet, and I think I found a couple of things I would like to discuss. But, I mean, they don’t teach you to deal with questions like the ones I have?
Elder Weltz: Like with the archaeological evidence?
Adrian: Yeah.
Elder Weltz: Part of that is what we would like to explain why we don’t focus on that so much. Is it ok, if we begin with a prayer?
Adrian: Yeah, lets just wait for my roommate.
(prayer)
Adrian: Ok, so, explain away.
Elder Martinez: Ok, so we’re going to explain to you the why, you know, even though we may not know fully of the archaeological events, there are things that we know from the scriptures, that is a weakness, that there is today a church restored to the earth. You said that before you, or not before, but right now, that you read the bible, or you’re familiar, you have a certain background of religion. (turns to Devin) But what about you? What role has religion played in your life?
Devin: A big role. The focus of life I would say. Like I’ve grown up believing, I was baptized myself five years ago, but yeah, you could say it is the primary focus of my life. Perhaps a little bit different from Adrian, you know, you could say I grew up Protestant, but I grew up non-denominational. One of my best friends is a Mormon actually.
Elder Martinez: So why is it different then than yours? (gestures towards Adrian)
Devin: Did you tell them?
Adrian: Yeah, I explained briefly. I grew up in a kind of a liberal Catholic and secular household, but that’s becoming a distinction without a difference really. So I grew up atheist for a good couple of years, till about two years ago, a year and a half, yeah, two years ago, I kind of made that transition, so unlike him (gestures towards Devin) where he kind of grew up in a church, I didn’t have that.
Elder Martinez: What took you to go atheist and go back to what you believe in?
Adrian: Well, it’s kind of a long story, but I guess in just a couple of minutes: My ex girlfriend, she was studying the Bible, and she was a Christian, I was not, and we would have these interesting discussions, but it was like a “whatever babe, I still love you” kind of thing, you know. Until one day, because of some issues we had stopped talking, because even though we were not together anymore, we would still be friends. And so I decided that well, if I came around to her church, then I would run into her, because she wasn’t returning my calls, I wasn’t seeing her at school, stuff like that, and so I started studying the Bible, and that didn’t go too well for them because I knew how to handle them, how to talk my way through that. But yeah, something kind of led me to critically examine my atheism, and so after reading a couple of books, actually just four books, I was like, ‘ok, my atheism doesn’t answer or is probably not a coherent worldview, and Christianity is’. So that’s it in a nutshell, but I mean, it’s a long story, with emotions and crying and phone calls late at night. (laughs)
Elder Martinez: This is something interesting. You mentioned emotions and the Bible, we have also the King James Version, there is a scripture that explains how you can feel those things. How God answers you, through the Holy Ghost. I don’t use this book, so let me try to look for it. Galatians…So in the book of Galatians, chapter five, there are two scriptures that explains how the Spirit manifests itself to us, and so we know that we can have a personal relationship with God, that God can tell us things, but he does through the spirit. So maybe you (gestures towards Devin), I’m sorry…
Devin: Devin
Elder Martinez: Devin. Would you read verse twenty two and twenty three, and so we can pay attention and see how the Spirit works.
Devin: Sure. I don’t have the King James version, so it’ll be a little different. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”
Elder Martinez: So what are some things that stuck out to you, that you got from this scripture?
Adrian: The Spirit is love.
Elder Martinez: Uh huh. So God shows He answers to us through the Spirit (inaudible). So as you feel those things, maybe today, while we’re talking to you can feel how God is telling you how these things are true. We know that God is our loving heavenly Father, He communicated to us through that, through the Spirit, not also because he loves us and he loves families, he communicates to us through prophets. Like Moses in the past, a prophet is somebody who talks with you face to us, and delivers the message to everyone of us, and though we may receive a personal relationship with God, a prophet says direct things for the whole world. And I know that God communicates himself through prophets because through prophets we have the scriptures, and we can know the pure doctrine of Jesus Christ. As his people, we have to be witnesses to interpret some things, that’s why God calls prophets. And that’s my personal testimony and I know God will always have prophets as he did in the past.
Elder Weltz: Do you have any questions from that?
Adrian: No.
Elder Weltz: So we talked about prophets because like we talked about yesterday we believe that pattern of prophets called all throughout the Bible, like Moses and Abraham and down through the line, has continued today. He still calls prophets because the prophet like, Martinez explained, is the spokesman that is necessary to guide the people, to be part of the organization of Christ’s church, to make sure that the people are staying on the path and are not wandering. So just like in the Old Testament times, people have always had the opportunity to accept and follow the prophet, or to not. So we know that God call prophets, that’s part of His plan, that’s part of His system, and that has continued until today. Part of the reason we emphasize this is because when Jesus Christ was on the Earth he, and we know that you are very familiar with this, with his ministry and what he did for us and his amazing sacrifice for us, but also because that same organization has been restored. The teaching, the doctrine, the apostles, they’re back. Just the way Christ did things while he was on the Earth, that is again continuing today. So do you have any questions from that?
Adrian: No, although I feel like I kind of expected something else though. I remember last time, you said you wanted to teach me, but I said before you even go there, you have to convince me first. So before we get into the Bible and your theology and doctrine and stuff, I would really like to - I mean, you guys have websites, and that’s great, so maybe we can move on from there, and go on to some of the things I’ve found. Because I feel like this is kind of going more in a Bible study direction, which is fine, but-
Elder Weltz: We obviously want to teach you what you want to hear, but the reason we emphasize that the church of Jesus Christ was established by Christ and was controlled by the apostles afterward, but that that church fell, and that is why it was necessary for there to be Joseph Smith and for there to be all these things.
Adrian: Right, and I understand that. Ok, so, I went online, and I believe, (small burp) I’m sorry, I just ate. Are you guys hungry?
Elder Martinez: No, no, we ate before we came here.
Adrian: Oh, ok. And so in your Pearl of Great Price there is the Book of Abraham, yes?
Elder Tiki: Mm hm, yes.
Adrian: Well, from what I understand, from the research that I’ve read, it seems to be that the Book of Abraham was not translated correctly from the Reformed Egyptian. Are you aware of this? Or aware of any tension at all? (All shake head) Ok, this all is completely new to you. Alright so, you do understand that, according to your doctrine or your new revelation or whatever you want to call it, Joseph Smith translated the Golden Plates from Reformed Egyptian, and that’s where we get the book of Mormon, or so that’s how it goes. And you said that’s his claim to legitimacy, that he translated the Book of Mormon from the Reformed Egyptian. And Joseph Smith also translated the Book of Abraham from the Reformed Egyptian. Yes? (All nod heads) Ok, so, do you know the story of how he got the book of Abraham?
Elder Tiki: I think it was, he saw it on some tomb?
Adrian: Yeah, he had bought some mummies, and there he found some papyri, did I say that right, papyri?
Devin: Yes, it’s papyri.
Adrian: Yeah, I think it’s papyri. Well, he recognized the Reformed Egyptian and he said, ‘ah, that’s the book of Abraham because this is what I translated the Book of Mormon with.’ I’m not sure if he bought the mummies, but he bought the scrolls, or the papyri, and he made some facsimiles, and he published them in the Mormon journal or magazine of his day, so we have copies of that. And for a long time, it was thought that these things were lost and burned in a fire. But then in the 1960’s, a museum in New York found them. And so what the Mormons, the Mormon officials did, at BYU, BYU? I would hope you guys are familiar with BYU, ok. (smiles) So what they did, I think BYU now has ownership of them, and they have claimed these to be the ones that Joseph Smith has purchased because of the facsimiles. And so they got some Egyptologists who translated it, and if Joseph Smith really was a prophet, then these papyri should be translated to what you guy shave as the Book of Abraham. If Joseph Smith is a true prophet, it should be right on the money. But after some translation, they found that it was nothing like it. It is nowhere near accurate, and so what that shows is that this leads us to one of two conclusions: either Joseph Smith was- because this calls into question the entirety of the Book of Mormon, because if he translated the Book of Abraham the same way he translated the book of Mormon, and the Book of Abraham seems to be a fraud, and whose fault it is, we’ll get to later, then that calls into question the Book of Mormon as well. So because we know through professional translations and through professors, that have been set up by people through BYU, either that shows that Joseph Smith did not know what he was doing, he was given false information, and he himself was deceived, or he knew what he was capable of and he knew he was translating it wrong, thus deceiving other people. So either he was deceived himself, or he deceived others, either way, it seems Joseph Smith could not have been a prophet. And I do have some research - I have an article saved on my computer, we don’t have to go online, which I would like to read to you, if that’s ok, because I do understand that you guys aren’t allowed to read anything, as missionaries. I got that from last time. So is it ok if I read it to you guys? Because I know you guys can’t read.
Elder Weltz: Can you just like summarize it?
Adrian: Yeah, let me just look at a couple of paragraphs. It reads, “Klaus Baer” who is one of the guys BYU contacted and said, ‘Can you translate this for us?’ says, “Klaus Baer said that the papyri that Smith thought was the Book of Abraham were actually “The Breathing Permit belonging to the priest Hor.” This is another name given for the Book of Breathings. Baer provided a comparison of his translation with Joseph Smith’s. It is quite easy to see that there is not the slightest resemblance between the two. For example…” And then Baer translated the word “the” from the papyri, an if you compare that to Joseph Smiths translation, and this is just for the word “the”, so what Baer translated as the word the word “the”, Smith’s translation was this entire paragraph. What that shows is that there is no way that what is in the papyri, which you guys have as the Book of Abraham, could not have been possibly been translated into what you guys have with you. Which shows that the Book of Abraham is a fraud. Because we have the papyri and we can look back, and it’s at BYU, and that shows that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. Because I mean, just the one word “the”, Joseph Smith translated into a whole paragraph. So, what do you guys think about that?
Elder Weltz: So…what is the…so you’re saying because this is wrong, then you have your proof that Joseph Smith is not a prophet? Right?
Adrian: Yes.
Elder Weltz: So you’ve already made up your mind?
Adrian: Well, from…yes. I mean, I was expecting something. Maybe you guys would have been prepared to address this, then I would have been open, but you guys don’t have anything really. You guys haven’t been trained, which kind of surprises me. Are you familiar with the field of apologetics? (Shakes head) Have you even heard the word apologetics? (shakes head) No? Ok.
Elder Martinez: How do you know that that is true?
Adrian: What is true?
Elder Martinez: Those papyri that they found, whether they’re accurate.
Adrian: Well, one, because legitimate Egyptologists have confirmed what I said, and not only that, but sources on your side as well.
Elder Martinez: But you know that if Abraham was a prophet, he has a lot more scriptures?
Adrian: Abraham?
Elder Martinez: Abraham.
Adrian: Well, he might have, but what I’m saying is that Joseph Smith said, ‘Abraham wrote this.’ And we know that it could not have been written by Abraham. And I’ve spoken to a Mormon online, and he says that we know that it could not have been written by Abraham because carbon dating puts it in the first century. So I mean, either way.
Elder Martinez: So either way (inaudible), one thing that I can tell you is that the only way you can know that Joseph Smith is a prophet is by asking God.
Adrian: I think I addressed that yesterday. I said, you know, I don’t want to base anything on subjective experience, because my subjective experience and my feelings, those can be deceived, those can be…um…not twinkled…
Devin: Tinkered?
Adrian: Tinkered with. I mean, where’s that passage that says the heart is deceitful above all things. Who can understand it? And not only that, but if I do get a warm feeling in my heart, that could be the work of Satan or a demon. I mean, the Bible also says Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So this could be something evil that is trying to make me feel good.
Elder Martinez: Or it could not.
Adrian: Or it could not. But the point is, that is not a legitimate way to base or experience reality. Now unlike Christianity, like me and my roommate practice and live out, because like for me, you have to understand that I came to Christianity not through merely subjective feelings and emotions, but through objective evidence. Paul says if Christ has not been risen, then your faith is worthless. So what he’s saying is that your faith, and your trust is rooted in something in reality, the resurrection, which I have been convinced of, historically, secularly. I just don’t think that-because if Jesus did not rise from the dead, like if someone was to find his bones in a box, in a tomb that said, “Here is Jesus, son of Joseph, who was called the Christ” and in a note you find something that says, you know, “We fooled the world, until today. Signed Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul” And if you were to do some DNA testing and it so happened that it matched the Shroud of Turin, that would convince me that Jesus would not rise from the dead, and I would no longer be a Christian. No matter what I feel. Because what I know to be true actually corresponds with reality, and reality tells me, irrespective of feelings, that this is how it happened. And because I love the Bible, and the Bible says, if Jesus is not raised from the dead, then your faith is worthless and you should be pitied. Because I love the Bible, I’m going to do what it’s pretty much implying me to do, like don’t follow this anymore. And I think this is quite decisive. If the Book of Abraham was written in the same language, in Reformed Egyptian, then that also calls into the question the Book of Mormon. I think that just shows that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, and I think the response that, oh, I just have to pray about it, well, no, because that might be the thing that deceiving you right from the get-go. I think you need to look at the external evidence, the things that are rooted in reality, just like Paul says the resurrection is rooted in reality, don’t pray about it, he offers evidence, and he has witnesses and he has all these things. And I have prayed about it, I have prayed over the Book of Mormon. He can attest to this (gestures towards Devin) and so can a couple of other people. I think we had it recorded.
Devin: He did it sincerely too. He wasn’t like joking.
Adrian: And I didn’t get the answer that you guys might have felt you got, if the Book of Mormon was true. In fact, I think I got the opposite answer. I got an answer, and the answer was, No, it not. And this led me to this (points to essay). I got an answer No, you got an answer Yes. If there is this kind of stalemate then you have to go with the external evidence, and I think the external evidence is not favorable to you guys. So what do you guys feel about that?
Elder Tiki: You’re a smart guy. You’ve done your research. But I only know one thing archaeological wise. The point of basing what our faith is, something you can hold, faith is works without seeing, but the one thing that I know, is that my friend, it’s not even like solid, what I mean by solid is that I personally haven’t seen it, my friends dad is a pilot, and he travels to Mexico and he’s seen some writings on a wall that he asked the people that live there that speak the language or know what the writing on the wall mean, and it translates to Nephi and Lehigh and those are the first books of the Book of Mormon. That’s the only archaeological thing that I know of, me personally, but something like what I said, faith is having something not seen, believing something that’s not seen.
Adrian: I think in that scripture, there is a clause. It says faith is the ASSURANCE of things not seen, and I have not seen the resurrection, but I have assurance through historical testimony and historical verifiability. It’s not that I’m just taking it on a blind leap of ignorance. Like one time, I went bungee jumping with a friend, and you would think that bungee jumping is a kind of leap of faith, as you’re describing, but it’s not. For me it wasn’t because I saw - because I had faith in the rope, or bungee cord, and where is that faith rooted? It’s not rooted in ignorance its rooted in-because I saw at least fifty other people go right before me and the bungee cord was solid and strong and reliable-so I had faith in it, or an act of trust in it, but that faith and that trust is rooted in evidence and reality of seeing other people do it and they were just fine. So I don’t think that that’s a good application of that scripture.
Devin: Well I don’t think that scripture, that doesn’t really apply here, since faith is being sure of what we hope for, certain of what we do not see, and that’s referring to heaven and whatnot.
Adrian: Assurance nonetheless.
Devin: Sure, that what I was going to say. I do want to say though that things like that are great. And, you know, if things inspire them to do good things, then that’s good, you know. The Bible says whatever is true, whatever is noble, if anything is excellent and trustworthy think of those things. So that’s good in an of itself, like people who like to follow the Sabbath and whatnot, for them it’s good and it’s good to have a day of rest, you know, and we’ll attest to that. But I think it still calls to question, you know, what is right, what is true, and I think what he’s trying to communicate here is that through prayer, it doesn’t give people the same answer. Whereas as, you know, the Book of Mormon, it has a summation. The Bible has a summation. There is a clear clarion call, you know, it’s going to say one thing, and it’s not going to change over time. It could apply to you in a different way and in a different light, but the think is, like with prayer, you also have to ask yourself, what constitutes answered prayer? You know, some people say God hasn’t answered my prayer yet, when the answer might be no. You know, so it’s like, Oh I’m still waiting for answer, but the answer might be no. So I think what he just wants is, what is the foundation of the faith, whereas, you know, just for other Christians it’s that Jesus, you know, he was died, buried and he was resurrected you know. He want’s to know what is the anchor for the soul of the Mormon faith, you know, outside of that prayer. Because I know I’ve talked with you before (gestures towards Elder Weltz) and it seems like what the anchor is pretty much, looking at the church, and the church is in shambles at the time, people were all going their different directions, and so, you know, obviously there needed to be a reformation and that’s what Joseph Smith is all about. And I can understand that as a point, and maybe that’s the point that Adrian is looking for. But I think he just kind of wants something that is there that we can then work with. What he’s obviously saying is that while prayer has worked for you, it hasn’t worked for him, so we should just throw that out for right now, and figure out what is that anchor for the Mormon faith, as the resurrection is the anchor for the soul for the other Christian denominations. So what would you guys say is the anchor? Would you say it’s that whole reformation with Joseph Smith?
Elder Weltz: Well that whole movement is obviously what separates us from your average Christian. So yes in that sense. But at the same time, it kind of goes back, like you said, we have to throw out prayer, and that’s the main problem. It’s that you say you can’t really trust prayer and that has to be what we are able to trust. It’s the one thing that draws us closer to God than anything else. That’s our connection to Him and if that’s something we can’t trust, then that’s a problem. You have to be able to rely on him and know what He is saying. And we understand you have these things (gestures towards Adrian) and it all looks crazy, you know, all those things happening, but you coming from an atheist background, we share a belief in the Bible right? I’m assuming you believe the Bible literally?
Adrian: What it’s trying to say literally.
Devin: We believe what the Bible says literally and the parts the parts of the Bible that are meant to be interpreted figuratively.
Adrian: Yeah, Bible says Herod was a fox, you know.
Elder Weltz: So, not only that, you are, coming from an atheist background, familiar with everything else that people say contradicts the Bible. They say Noah’s Ark is ridiculous, people say evolution, people say this pot from 10,000 BC, there’s your evidence that this isn’t true. There’s tons of this “evidence” that the Bible isn’t true. That Christianity and Jesus wasn’t a prophet. There’s lots of physical tangible evidences that people hold up and say, Here it is, it’s not right, you know. I’m sure familiar with that.
Devin: Those are things though that they appear to be that way at first, but when you closely examine them they’re not. And that’s why Adrian asked you to bring some stuff so we can say, Ok, are these things that these guys are saying true? And this we can know to be true because its from a reputable University, that tends to be affiliated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so we know that they’re not to just be blatantly lying. So they’re at least telling the truth or they’re telling enough of the truth. Maybe they’re withholding something for all we know, but they’re at least telling the truth in that sense. They’re not going to lie and so damage their reputation, and certainly not of the Egyptologists. You can count the number of Egyptologists in the world on your fingers, you know, and that guys needs to keep his reputation. I think like as for the other things, we’re not saying throw out prayer, but what we’re saying is, in context of this conversation, obviously it didn’t work for him.
Elder Martinez: Right, and we get what you’re saying.
Devin: I believe that yeah, you can trust prayer, you can perfectly trust prayer, and if he takes that thought, that he should not believe in Mormonism whatsoever, so that’s what he’s saying, Is there something else?
Elder Martinez: Yes. There is something else, that’s for sure, and that’s what we were trying to say at the beginning, because if you literally believe the Bible, then it will be easy for you to understand that today we have the Book of Mormon and today the church of Jesus Christ has been brought back to the Earth, because he was prophesied in the Bible, the church was going to be restored. That Jesus Christ was going to be crucified and the apostles were going to be killed. We had Jesus Christ and the apostles, and eventually, there was no church. No authority to baptize people, nothing. But our Heavenly Father called another prophet, just like the apostles.
Adrian: Right, and I think that this whole Book of Abraham, that shows, that demonstrates that Joseph Smith was not a legitimate prophet. And that seems to be your foundation, and that’s what I’m trying to pull out under your feet here. That entire premise is problematic. So before you can even build on anything on that, you can’t even get that off the ground. What we have to deal with is if Joseph Smith was a legitimate prophet or not. I mean, maybe the church did have this great apostasy, maybe, maybe not, but whether it was restored or not, which is your claim, then you face some problems. But I really want you guys to confront this and deal with this. I understand what you guys are doing, if I were in your shoes, and I was told the Book of Mormon was true, and I was told to go and make disciples of all nations, then I would be doing it. That’s why I’m a Christian, and I’m trying help you guys because you believe that I have a problem, and you’re trying to save me, and I appreciate that, because if you believe that, then you should go out and evangelize. But I also believe that you guys are in the wrong, and I’m trying to help you guys out here. And you are doing the same thing that I’m doing here. I’m just saying, out of us two, I think as far the prayer, I got the answer, the answer was no, you got the answer yes, and the tiebreaker, the thing that puts it over the top is the evidences inside here (gestures towards article) and so you really need to grapple with this issue, with the Book of Abraham being a fraud or not.
Elder Martinez: Have you read the Book of Mormon?
Adrian: I’ve read some of it.
Elder Martinez: Have you really read it?
Adrian: How do you "really" read it? It has letters-
Devin: Like did you just skim over it? Did you actually try to read it? Like the sincere prayer.
Adrian: Yeah, I read like ten pages.
Elder Martinez: Well, read the Book of Mormon, and tell us what God told you as you were reading the Book of Mormon, because it is the most correct book on the whole Earth. And I know this because I read it, and I read it aside with the Bible everyday, and I know it is true, and I know you can find this out for yourself, and in the Bible-let me find it in this Bible, because I read the Bible in Spanish, I’m not really good at English, let me just find the scripture.
Devin: Your English is very good.
Elder Martinez: Thank you.
Adrian: We’re Spanish speakers as well.
Elder Martinez: You speak Spanish too? (gestures towards Devin)
Devin: Claro que si.
Elder Martinez: Where did you learn Spanish?
Devin: Here in Long Beach, and just working at the bank.
Adrian: And I teach him a couple of things.
Devin: Yeah.
Elder Martinez: Ok, I think it’s in John, no it’s in Acts…uh, where is this man Gamaliel.
Devin: Oh that guy, with the speech. I’ll find it.
Elder Martinez: It’s Acts 5. I think it’s in verse-
Devin: 38
Elder Martinez: Yeah. Verse 38 and 39. Maybe you want to read it from your Bible?
Devin: Sure. “Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Elder Martinez: What I get from this scripture, and I hope you really understand how I feel about all this, how we all feel, because in the year 1820 all this started with Joseph Smith, and after all that he translated the book and his work, the Church of Jesus Christ, has not stopped. It is growing and it will always, the word of Jesus Christ is always moving forward. If this is the work of man, then it will be destroyed. If it true, then all the Churches of Latter Day Saints would have fallen. What would happen right now? What would happen tomorrow? Just pay attention to that and you will see maybe more people joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Adrian: I don’t think that’s very persuasive. I think there is something else added to the text there, because if what you are saying is true, then that would also give credence to Islam as well, which is a very rapid growing religion as well, I don’t know exactly what that proves. I mean if your going to say that because of growth and converts that means it’s true, then you would be forced to cede that to the Muslims as well. I don’t think that’s something you want to do.
Elder Martinez: Well I’m just not comparing it to any other religion or anything, I’m just telling you that the work of Jesus Christ is moving forward and that this is his Church. It’s not the church of Joseph Smith, we do not worship him, but we have a prophet and twelve apostles, but what you have to face is the Book of Mormon. And until you read it, until you see that all of the Book of Mormon is completely false, you can everyone that it is false, and you can help us learn that it is false. But we have read it and we know that it is true.
Adrian: Like I said, because of the Book of Abraham is written in the same language as the Book of Mormon, and he got that wrong, that means he must have gotten the Book of Mormon wrong as well.
Elder Martinez: Well you got to test it.
Devin: Well, I have read through the Book of Mormon, we’ve always had it in my house. I told you my friend is one, and one of the arguments she always used to make is how Christians, we use the NIV, and she would always cite 1st Corinthians 13 where it talks about love and in the King James Version it says charity. And she always used to say that when I said love is wrong, till eventually I just took out my Greek Bible and I said, Look, agape. Like when I say me agapo theos, which means I love God, and it means I sacrificially love. The English word charity it had that connotation at that time of the King James Bible but it doesn’t have that anymore. She was not willing to see how at the same time how it can mean charity it means charity in that archaic sense. And we need to trust the Greek, the original. That is the Bible itself, these are translations, these are, you can say, branches off of that tree, and while we can get things very close to that language, it will never be exactly the same. Like the NIV, it was just changed at the end of this year, basically, for 2011. That way the language could keep up, you know. That’s why it’s love in the NIV now, not charity, because people don’t understand charity to mean that anymore. And I haven’t so much studied the Semitic languages like Egyptian and Hebrew and Arabic, but what I do know is that if Abraham wrote anything, it would be in protosamarian. Because I think, here (opens to back of Bible with routes mapped), yeah, this is shows Abraham’s journey, yeah. And you see down here, in Ur, he gets through there, but he comes back through here. And you see, this is all the Samarian world. This is where he began everything. So that was his first language you know. While today it’s a very multicultural world, back then, that would have been the language he would have been speaking. Proto, proto meaning first, then Samarian, or sumur, which is the language before the Babylonians. So if he were to be writing in anything, it would be written in that, if not, then it would have to be written by somebody else, and they would even have to translate it themselves. So I guess the other thing is, lets say that you had one of your prophets translate this thing and they came out with a different interpretation than Joseph Smith, but still a different one from the Egyptologists. And lets say that you can just throw the Egyptologist out. Lets say that that prophet can be the definitive person speaking through God. Lets say he translates that though, but it’s different than Joseph Smiths. Lets say it has, you know, one major difference, but everything else is pretty much the same. Would you then follow the new prophets new interpretation of that? Or would you go with Joseph Smiths?
Elder Martinez: Can you ask that question again?
Devin: Yeah. Lets say that, you know, I believe that you guys have a prophet, right? I’m not really sure-
Adrian: Monson.
Devin: What?
Adrian: Monson.
Devin: Oh, is that his name?
Adrian: Yes.
Elder Martinez: No, no, we ate before we came here.
Adrian: Oh, ok. And so in your Pearl of Great Price there is the Book of Abraham, yes?
Elder Tiki: Mm hm, yes.
Adrian: Well, from what I understand, from the research that I’ve read, it seems to be that the Book of Abraham was not translated correctly from the Reformed Egyptian. Are you aware of this? Or aware of any tension at all? (All shake head) Ok, this all is completely new to you. Alright so, you do understand that, according to your doctrine or your new revelation or whatever you want to call it, Joseph Smith translated the Golden Plates from Reformed Egyptian, and that’s where we get the book of Mormon, or so that’s how it goes. And you said that’s his claim to legitimacy, that he translated the Book of Mormon from the Reformed Egyptian. And Joseph Smith also translated the Book of Abraham from the Reformed Egyptian. Yes? (All nod heads) Ok, so, do you know the story of how he got the book of Abraham?
Elder Tiki: I think it was, he saw it on some tomb?
Adrian: Yeah, he had bought some mummies, and there he found some papyri, did I say that right, papyri?
Devin: Yes, it’s papyri.
Adrian: Yeah, I think it’s papyri. Well, he recognized the Reformed Egyptian and he said, ‘ah, that’s the book of Abraham because this is what I translated the Book of Mormon with.’ I’m not sure if he bought the mummies, but he bought the scrolls, or the papyri, and he made some facsimiles, and he published them in the Mormon journal or magazine of his day, so we have copies of that. And for a long time, it was thought that these things were lost and burned in a fire. But then in the 1960’s, a museum in New York found them. And so what the Mormons, the Mormon officials did, at BYU, BYU? I would hope you guys are familiar with BYU, ok. (smiles) So what they did, I think BYU now has ownership of them, and they have claimed these to be the ones that Joseph Smith has purchased because of the facsimiles. And so they got some Egyptologists who translated it, and if Joseph Smith really was a prophet, then these papyri should be translated to what you guy shave as the Book of Abraham. If Joseph Smith is a true prophet, it should be right on the money. But after some translation, they found that it was nothing like it. It is nowhere near accurate, and so what that shows is that this leads us to one of two conclusions: either Joseph Smith was- because this calls into question the entirety of the Book of Mormon, because if he translated the Book of Abraham the same way he translated the book of Mormon, and the Book of Abraham seems to be a fraud, and whose fault it is, we’ll get to later, then that calls into question the Book of Mormon as well. So because we know through professional translations and through professors, that have been set up by people through BYU, either that shows that Joseph Smith did not know what he was doing, he was given false information, and he himself was deceived, or he knew what he was capable of and he knew he was translating it wrong, thus deceiving other people. So either he was deceived himself, or he deceived others, either way, it seems Joseph Smith could not have been a prophet. And I do have some research - I have an article saved on my computer, we don’t have to go online, which I would like to read to you, if that’s ok, because I do understand that you guys aren’t allowed to read anything, as missionaries. I got that from last time. So is it ok if I read it to you guys? Because I know you guys can’t read.
Elder Weltz: Can you just like summarize it?
Adrian: Yeah, let me just look at a couple of paragraphs. It reads, “Klaus Baer” who is one of the guys BYU contacted and said, ‘Can you translate this for us?’ says, “Klaus Baer said that the papyri that Smith thought was the Book of Abraham were actually “The Breathing Permit belonging to the priest Hor.” This is another name given for the Book of Breathings. Baer provided a comparison of his translation with Joseph Smith’s. It is quite easy to see that there is not the slightest resemblance between the two. For example…” And then Baer translated the word “the” from the papyri, an if you compare that to Joseph Smiths translation, and this is just for the word “the”, so what Baer translated as the word the word “the”, Smith’s translation was this entire paragraph. What that shows is that there is no way that what is in the papyri, which you guys have as the Book of Abraham, could not have been possibly been translated into what you guys have with you. Which shows that the Book of Abraham is a fraud. Because we have the papyri and we can look back, and it’s at BYU, and that shows that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. Because I mean, just the one word “the”, Joseph Smith translated into a whole paragraph. So, what do you guys think about that?
Elder Weltz: So…what is the…so you’re saying because this is wrong, then you have your proof that Joseph Smith is not a prophet? Right?
Adrian: Yes.
Elder Weltz: So you’ve already made up your mind?
Adrian: Well, from…yes. I mean, I was expecting something. Maybe you guys would have been prepared to address this, then I would have been open, but you guys don’t have anything really. You guys haven’t been trained, which kind of surprises me. Are you familiar with the field of apologetics? (Shakes head) Have you even heard the word apologetics? (shakes head) No? Ok.
Elder Martinez: How do you know that that is true?
Adrian: What is true?
Elder Martinez: Those papyri that they found, whether they’re accurate.
Adrian: Well, one, because legitimate Egyptologists have confirmed what I said, and not only that, but sources on your side as well.
Elder Martinez: But you know that if Abraham was a prophet, he has a lot more scriptures?
Adrian: Abraham?
Elder Martinez: Abraham.
Adrian: Well, he might have, but what I’m saying is that Joseph Smith said, ‘Abraham wrote this.’ And we know that it could not have been written by Abraham. And I’ve spoken to a Mormon online, and he says that we know that it could not have been written by Abraham because carbon dating puts it in the first century. So I mean, either way.
Elder Martinez: So either way (inaudible), one thing that I can tell you is that the only way you can know that Joseph Smith is a prophet is by asking God.
Adrian: I think I addressed that yesterday. I said, you know, I don’t want to base anything on subjective experience, because my subjective experience and my feelings, those can be deceived, those can be…um…not twinkled…
Devin: Tinkered?
Adrian: Tinkered with. I mean, where’s that passage that says the heart is deceitful above all things. Who can understand it? And not only that, but if I do get a warm feeling in my heart, that could be the work of Satan or a demon. I mean, the Bible also says Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So this could be something evil that is trying to make me feel good.
Elder Martinez: Or it could not.
Adrian: Or it could not. But the point is, that is not a legitimate way to base or experience reality. Now unlike Christianity, like me and my roommate practice and live out, because like for me, you have to understand that I came to Christianity not through merely subjective feelings and emotions, but through objective evidence. Paul says if Christ has not been risen, then your faith is worthless. So what he’s saying is that your faith, and your trust is rooted in something in reality, the resurrection, which I have been convinced of, historically, secularly. I just don’t think that-because if Jesus did not rise from the dead, like if someone was to find his bones in a box, in a tomb that said, “Here is Jesus, son of Joseph, who was called the Christ” and in a note you find something that says, you know, “We fooled the world, until today. Signed Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul” And if you were to do some DNA testing and it so happened that it matched the Shroud of Turin, that would convince me that Jesus would not rise from the dead, and I would no longer be a Christian. No matter what I feel. Because what I know to be true actually corresponds with reality, and reality tells me, irrespective of feelings, that this is how it happened. And because I love the Bible, and the Bible says, if Jesus is not raised from the dead, then your faith is worthless and you should be pitied. Because I love the Bible, I’m going to do what it’s pretty much implying me to do, like don’t follow this anymore. And I think this is quite decisive. If the Book of Abraham was written in the same language, in Reformed Egyptian, then that also calls into the question the Book of Mormon. I think that just shows that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, and I think the response that, oh, I just have to pray about it, well, no, because that might be the thing that deceiving you right from the get-go. I think you need to look at the external evidence, the things that are rooted in reality, just like Paul says the resurrection is rooted in reality, don’t pray about it, he offers evidence, and he has witnesses and he has all these things. And I have prayed about it, I have prayed over the Book of Mormon. He can attest to this (gestures towards Devin) and so can a couple of other people. I think we had it recorded.
Devin: He did it sincerely too. He wasn’t like joking.
Adrian: And I didn’t get the answer that you guys might have felt you got, if the Book of Mormon was true. In fact, I think I got the opposite answer. I got an answer, and the answer was, No, it not. And this led me to this (points to essay). I got an answer No, you got an answer Yes. If there is this kind of stalemate then you have to go with the external evidence, and I think the external evidence is not favorable to you guys. So what do you guys feel about that?
Elder Tiki: You’re a smart guy. You’ve done your research. But I only know one thing archaeological wise. The point of basing what our faith is, something you can hold, faith is works without seeing, but the one thing that I know, is that my friend, it’s not even like solid, what I mean by solid is that I personally haven’t seen it, my friends dad is a pilot, and he travels to Mexico and he’s seen some writings on a wall that he asked the people that live there that speak the language or know what the writing on the wall mean, and it translates to Nephi and Lehigh and those are the first books of the Book of Mormon. That’s the only archaeological thing that I know of, me personally, but something like what I said, faith is having something not seen, believing something that’s not seen.
Adrian: I think in that scripture, there is a clause. It says faith is the ASSURANCE of things not seen, and I have not seen the resurrection, but I have assurance through historical testimony and historical verifiability. It’s not that I’m just taking it on a blind leap of ignorance. Like one time, I went bungee jumping with a friend, and you would think that bungee jumping is a kind of leap of faith, as you’re describing, but it’s not. For me it wasn’t because I saw - because I had faith in the rope, or bungee cord, and where is that faith rooted? It’s not rooted in ignorance its rooted in-because I saw at least fifty other people go right before me and the bungee cord was solid and strong and reliable-so I had faith in it, or an act of trust in it, but that faith and that trust is rooted in evidence and reality of seeing other people do it and they were just fine. So I don’t think that that’s a good application of that scripture.
Devin: Well I don’t think that scripture, that doesn’t really apply here, since faith is being sure of what we hope for, certain of what we do not see, and that’s referring to heaven and whatnot.
Adrian: Assurance nonetheless.
Devin: Sure, that what I was going to say. I do want to say though that things like that are great. And, you know, if things inspire them to do good things, then that’s good, you know. The Bible says whatever is true, whatever is noble, if anything is excellent and trustworthy think of those things. So that’s good in an of itself, like people who like to follow the Sabbath and whatnot, for them it’s good and it’s good to have a day of rest, you know, and we’ll attest to that. But I think it still calls to question, you know, what is right, what is true, and I think what he’s trying to communicate here is that through prayer, it doesn’t give people the same answer. Whereas as, you know, the Book of Mormon, it has a summation. The Bible has a summation. There is a clear clarion call, you know, it’s going to say one thing, and it’s not going to change over time. It could apply to you in a different way and in a different light, but the think is, like with prayer, you also have to ask yourself, what constitutes answered prayer? You know, some people say God hasn’t answered my prayer yet, when the answer might be no. You know, so it’s like, Oh I’m still waiting for answer, but the answer might be no. So I think what he just wants is, what is the foundation of the faith, whereas, you know, just for other Christians it’s that Jesus, you know, he was died, buried and he was resurrected you know. He want’s to know what is the anchor for the soul of the Mormon faith, you know, outside of that prayer. Because I know I’ve talked with you before (gestures towards Elder Weltz) and it seems like what the anchor is pretty much, looking at the church, and the church is in shambles at the time, people were all going their different directions, and so, you know, obviously there needed to be a reformation and that’s what Joseph Smith is all about. And I can understand that as a point, and maybe that’s the point that Adrian is looking for. But I think he just kind of wants something that is there that we can then work with. What he’s obviously saying is that while prayer has worked for you, it hasn’t worked for him, so we should just throw that out for right now, and figure out what is that anchor for the Mormon faith, as the resurrection is the anchor for the soul for the other Christian denominations. So what would you guys say is the anchor? Would you say it’s that whole reformation with Joseph Smith?
Elder Weltz: Well that whole movement is obviously what separates us from your average Christian. So yes in that sense. But at the same time, it kind of goes back, like you said, we have to throw out prayer, and that’s the main problem. It’s that you say you can’t really trust prayer and that has to be what we are able to trust. It’s the one thing that draws us closer to God than anything else. That’s our connection to Him and if that’s something we can’t trust, then that’s a problem. You have to be able to rely on him and know what He is saying. And we understand you have these things (gestures towards Adrian) and it all looks crazy, you know, all those things happening, but you coming from an atheist background, we share a belief in the Bible right? I’m assuming you believe the Bible literally?
Adrian: What it’s trying to say literally.
Devin: We believe what the Bible says literally and the parts the parts of the Bible that are meant to be interpreted figuratively.
Adrian: Yeah, Bible says Herod was a fox, you know.
Elder Weltz: So, not only that, you are, coming from an atheist background, familiar with everything else that people say contradicts the Bible. They say Noah’s Ark is ridiculous, people say evolution, people say this pot from 10,000 BC, there’s your evidence that this isn’t true. There’s tons of this “evidence” that the Bible isn’t true. That Christianity and Jesus wasn’t a prophet. There’s lots of physical tangible evidences that people hold up and say, Here it is, it’s not right, you know. I’m sure familiar with that.
Devin: Those are things though that they appear to be that way at first, but when you closely examine them they’re not. And that’s why Adrian asked you to bring some stuff so we can say, Ok, are these things that these guys are saying true? And this we can know to be true because its from a reputable University, that tends to be affiliated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so we know that they’re not to just be blatantly lying. So they’re at least telling the truth or they’re telling enough of the truth. Maybe they’re withholding something for all we know, but they’re at least telling the truth in that sense. They’re not going to lie and so damage their reputation, and certainly not of the Egyptologists. You can count the number of Egyptologists in the world on your fingers, you know, and that guys needs to keep his reputation. I think like as for the other things, we’re not saying throw out prayer, but what we’re saying is, in context of this conversation, obviously it didn’t work for him.
Elder Martinez: Right, and we get what you’re saying.
Devin: I believe that yeah, you can trust prayer, you can perfectly trust prayer, and if he takes that thought, that he should not believe in Mormonism whatsoever, so that’s what he’s saying, Is there something else?
Elder Martinez: Yes. There is something else, that’s for sure, and that’s what we were trying to say at the beginning, because if you literally believe the Bible, then it will be easy for you to understand that today we have the Book of Mormon and today the church of Jesus Christ has been brought back to the Earth, because he was prophesied in the Bible, the church was going to be restored. That Jesus Christ was going to be crucified and the apostles were going to be killed. We had Jesus Christ and the apostles, and eventually, there was no church. No authority to baptize people, nothing. But our Heavenly Father called another prophet, just like the apostles.
Adrian: Right, and I think that this whole Book of Abraham, that shows, that demonstrates that Joseph Smith was not a legitimate prophet. And that seems to be your foundation, and that’s what I’m trying to pull out under your feet here. That entire premise is problematic. So before you can even build on anything on that, you can’t even get that off the ground. What we have to deal with is if Joseph Smith was a legitimate prophet or not. I mean, maybe the church did have this great apostasy, maybe, maybe not, but whether it was restored or not, which is your claim, then you face some problems. But I really want you guys to confront this and deal with this. I understand what you guys are doing, if I were in your shoes, and I was told the Book of Mormon was true, and I was told to go and make disciples of all nations, then I would be doing it. That’s why I’m a Christian, and I’m trying help you guys because you believe that I have a problem, and you’re trying to save me, and I appreciate that, because if you believe that, then you should go out and evangelize. But I also believe that you guys are in the wrong, and I’m trying to help you guys out here. And you are doing the same thing that I’m doing here. I’m just saying, out of us two, I think as far the prayer, I got the answer, the answer was no, you got the answer yes, and the tiebreaker, the thing that puts it over the top is the evidences inside here (gestures towards article) and so you really need to grapple with this issue, with the Book of Abraham being a fraud or not.
Elder Martinez: Have you read the Book of Mormon?
Adrian: I’ve read some of it.
Elder Martinez: Have you really read it?
Adrian: How do you "really" read it? It has letters-
Devin: Like did you just skim over it? Did you actually try to read it? Like the sincere prayer.
Adrian: Yeah, I read like ten pages.
Elder Martinez: Well, read the Book of Mormon, and tell us what God told you as you were reading the Book of Mormon, because it is the most correct book on the whole Earth. And I know this because I read it, and I read it aside with the Bible everyday, and I know it is true, and I know you can find this out for yourself, and in the Bible-let me find it in this Bible, because I read the Bible in Spanish, I’m not really good at English, let me just find the scripture.
Devin: Your English is very good.
Elder Martinez: Thank you.
Adrian: We’re Spanish speakers as well.
Elder Martinez: You speak Spanish too? (gestures towards Devin)
Devin: Claro que si.
Elder Martinez: Where did you learn Spanish?
Devin: Here in Long Beach, and just working at the bank.
Adrian: And I teach him a couple of things.
Devin: Yeah.
Elder Martinez: Ok, I think it’s in John, no it’s in Acts…uh, where is this man Gamaliel.
Devin: Oh that guy, with the speech. I’ll find it.
Elder Martinez: It’s Acts 5. I think it’s in verse-
Devin: 38
Elder Martinez: Yeah. Verse 38 and 39. Maybe you want to read it from your Bible?
Devin: Sure. “Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Elder Martinez: What I get from this scripture, and I hope you really understand how I feel about all this, how we all feel, because in the year 1820 all this started with Joseph Smith, and after all that he translated the book and his work, the Church of Jesus Christ, has not stopped. It is growing and it will always, the word of Jesus Christ is always moving forward. If this is the work of man, then it will be destroyed. If it true, then all the Churches of Latter Day Saints would have fallen. What would happen right now? What would happen tomorrow? Just pay attention to that and you will see maybe more people joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Adrian: I don’t think that’s very persuasive. I think there is something else added to the text there, because if what you are saying is true, then that would also give credence to Islam as well, which is a very rapid growing religion as well, I don’t know exactly what that proves. I mean if your going to say that because of growth and converts that means it’s true, then you would be forced to cede that to the Muslims as well. I don’t think that’s something you want to do.
Elder Martinez: Well I’m just not comparing it to any other religion or anything, I’m just telling you that the work of Jesus Christ is moving forward and that this is his Church. It’s not the church of Joseph Smith, we do not worship him, but we have a prophet and twelve apostles, but what you have to face is the Book of Mormon. And until you read it, until you see that all of the Book of Mormon is completely false, you can everyone that it is false, and you can help us learn that it is false. But we have read it and we know that it is true.
Adrian: Like I said, because of the Book of Abraham is written in the same language as the Book of Mormon, and he got that wrong, that means he must have gotten the Book of Mormon wrong as well.
Elder Martinez: Well you got to test it.
Devin: Well, I have read through the Book of Mormon, we’ve always had it in my house. I told you my friend is one, and one of the arguments she always used to make is how Christians, we use the NIV, and she would always cite 1st Corinthians 13 where it talks about love and in the King James Version it says charity. And she always used to say that when I said love is wrong, till eventually I just took out my Greek Bible and I said, Look, agape. Like when I say me agapo theos, which means I love God, and it means I sacrificially love. The English word charity it had that connotation at that time of the King James Bible but it doesn’t have that anymore. She was not willing to see how at the same time how it can mean charity it means charity in that archaic sense. And we need to trust the Greek, the original. That is the Bible itself, these are translations, these are, you can say, branches off of that tree, and while we can get things very close to that language, it will never be exactly the same. Like the NIV, it was just changed at the end of this year, basically, for 2011. That way the language could keep up, you know. That’s why it’s love in the NIV now, not charity, because people don’t understand charity to mean that anymore. And I haven’t so much studied the Semitic languages like Egyptian and Hebrew and Arabic, but what I do know is that if Abraham wrote anything, it would be in protosamarian. Because I think, here (opens to back of Bible with routes mapped), yeah, this is shows Abraham’s journey, yeah. And you see down here, in Ur, he gets through there, but he comes back through here. And you see, this is all the Samarian world. This is where he began everything. So that was his first language you know. While today it’s a very multicultural world, back then, that would have been the language he would have been speaking. Proto, proto meaning first, then Samarian, or sumur, which is the language before the Babylonians. So if he were to be writing in anything, it would be written in that, if not, then it would have to be written by somebody else, and they would even have to translate it themselves. So I guess the other thing is, lets say that you had one of your prophets translate this thing and they came out with a different interpretation than Joseph Smith, but still a different one from the Egyptologists. And lets say that you can just throw the Egyptologist out. Lets say that that prophet can be the definitive person speaking through God. Lets say he translates that though, but it’s different than Joseph Smiths. Lets say it has, you know, one major difference, but everything else is pretty much the same. Would you then follow the new prophets new interpretation of that? Or would you go with Joseph Smiths?
Elder Martinez: Can you ask that question again?
Devin: Yeah. Lets say that, you know, I believe that you guys have a prophet, right? I’m not really sure-
Adrian: Monson.
Devin: What?
Adrian: Monson.
Devin: Oh, is that his name?
Adrian: Yes.
Devin: Oh, ok, well, lets say Mr. Monson, prophet Monson, or whatever, lets say that, you know, that he, as a prophet were to be given these texts. And lets say he was able to translate it. Lets say he got a different translation, though, from Joseph Smith’s, not entirely different, but just a little bit, and that it was totally different than the Egyptologists, so we can throw that out, we can just say that God really is with Joseph Smith and with guy. But lets say it is different. Which translation do you take? Joseph Smith’s or the current prophet Monson?
Elder Martinez: The thing is he wouldn’t translate it-
Devin: Well, no, but lets just say that he did though. Remember that this is all hypothetical. Because what I’m going at here is that God himself doesn’t change. God doesn’t change at all, no matter what. But say people could change his writings, you could say, but one thing about the Bible is that it has remained constant. Like earlier you were talking about how atheists will say there are controversies and contradictions, those don’t really occur in the Bible. You could even look at it in the Greek, and those aren’t really there. Lots of it are just different things with like, you know, language and it just seems different. Like Spanish seems a little different than English, doesn’t mean that it’s different, it just means that those languages are, so you go back to the Greek. In the same way, you know, for clarification, you go back to this, what kind of Egyptian do they call it? Reformed?
Adrian: Yeah.
Devin: If you go back to that, and you have somebody else translate it, it should come out to be the same thing. In the same way we have translated the Bible into English, you know, those people may not have called themselves prophets, but they certainly did have a revelation to interpret in that language, and they get something different, and people, when they do get something different, we call that translation incoherent, it’s just wrong. So I think in the same way, what Adrian is saying is very viable, that if we found something that was different in the Bible now, that we would have a big problem. You know, that’s what’s cool about the Dead Sea Scrolls, that have a lot of the books of the Hebrew Bible. Those things were locked away for thousands of years. In 1945 or so, a little boy in Qumran was throwing rocks in a cave, and we’ve found that they were all the same. It should be the same with the Book of Mormon if it’s from God. So just like you said with those guys, you know, if they are from God then we will find ourselves fighting against God. And the thing is here that, you know, God can easily defend himself. God could have made it so that Ok, well actually this guy found the wrong thing or whatever. But he didn’t, you know. I mean, if something were out there that’s really against the Bible, nobody would believe it. It’s just how it is these days. In the same way nobody believes that babies just pop out of the ground anymore. It’s not like a woman just starts having a baby. Obviously there had to be that act beforehand, with a man, that created the baby, that ancient people didn’t understand that. But now we don’t Oh, the baby just popped out of nowhere. That’s why Jesus Christ is so like, you know, phenomenal, it’s so different in the sense of just this whole idea of these scriptures and whatnot. There needs to be some sort of redirection here. I mean, if you are to believe this, and yet at the same time, you know, accept the Bible, and how it’s been backed up, but yet how god doesn’t choose to back up the Book of Mormon for some reason, it’s not coherent. You would have to stop believing in one or then you’d have to start altering your views and that would lack integrity of faith. And I think it was said earlier, I think it was you actually (gestures towards Weltz) about faith, and then it went into the other scripture, the scripture before you were using, relates to James, where it says show me your faith without deeds and I will show you may faith by what I do. It’s saying that it’s displayed there in action and that it always has been. That same passage that we went to, in Hebrews 11, it’s the Hall of Faith some people call it. And they went through there with God and they did amazing things and it was these actions that backed it up. God was always there. If God is with them, he backs them up. I think that, you know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that it is an amazing thing to the world, and that it is good, and that it is based on biblical principles, as you obviously have a Bible there. That’s wonderful and amazing. But even what I do know, is that, very similar to Islam, there was, right after Joseph Smith was murdered, you know, he was shot, then he was jailed, and then they all stormed him, there was a division. There were people who wanted to follow his bloodline and there were others that wanted it to be by election. And that shows right there that, you know, the church was divided again. If it was from God it would not fail in that sense.
Elder Martinez: And it’s still up today. And if it’s not from God, it will fail tomorrow. We invite you to pay attention to that and see how many things will come up, but God will always support his church. And just pay attention to that because the church will never fail.
Devin: It doesn’t have to fail, and I’m not saying that it will, but there are other people like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you know, that are, like, they’re not truth, and things that are not truth have a tendency of staying around for a while. (inaudible) And you will as well, but the thing is, you can know now. Like lets say, I think it really comes down to-let me ask you actually. (gestures towards Adrian) Do you have a commitment to truth?
Adrian: Yes.
Elder Martinez: The thing is he wouldn’t translate it-
Devin: Well, no, but lets just say that he did though. Remember that this is all hypothetical. Because what I’m going at here is that God himself doesn’t change. God doesn’t change at all, no matter what. But say people could change his writings, you could say, but one thing about the Bible is that it has remained constant. Like earlier you were talking about how atheists will say there are controversies and contradictions, those don’t really occur in the Bible. You could even look at it in the Greek, and those aren’t really there. Lots of it are just different things with like, you know, language and it just seems different. Like Spanish seems a little different than English, doesn’t mean that it’s different, it just means that those languages are, so you go back to the Greek. In the same way, you know, for clarification, you go back to this, what kind of Egyptian do they call it? Reformed?
Adrian: Yeah.
Devin: If you go back to that, and you have somebody else translate it, it should come out to be the same thing. In the same way we have translated the Bible into English, you know, those people may not have called themselves prophets, but they certainly did have a revelation to interpret in that language, and they get something different, and people, when they do get something different, we call that translation incoherent, it’s just wrong. So I think in the same way, what Adrian is saying is very viable, that if we found something that was different in the Bible now, that we would have a big problem. You know, that’s what’s cool about the Dead Sea Scrolls, that have a lot of the books of the Hebrew Bible. Those things were locked away for thousands of years. In 1945 or so, a little boy in Qumran was throwing rocks in a cave, and we’ve found that they were all the same. It should be the same with the Book of Mormon if it’s from God. So just like you said with those guys, you know, if they are from God then we will find ourselves fighting against God. And the thing is here that, you know, God can easily defend himself. God could have made it so that Ok, well actually this guy found the wrong thing or whatever. But he didn’t, you know. I mean, if something were out there that’s really against the Bible, nobody would believe it. It’s just how it is these days. In the same way nobody believes that babies just pop out of the ground anymore. It’s not like a woman just starts having a baby. Obviously there had to be that act beforehand, with a man, that created the baby, that ancient people didn’t understand that. But now we don’t Oh, the baby just popped out of nowhere. That’s why Jesus Christ is so like, you know, phenomenal, it’s so different in the sense of just this whole idea of these scriptures and whatnot. There needs to be some sort of redirection here. I mean, if you are to believe this, and yet at the same time, you know, accept the Bible, and how it’s been backed up, but yet how god doesn’t choose to back up the Book of Mormon for some reason, it’s not coherent. You would have to stop believing in one or then you’d have to start altering your views and that would lack integrity of faith. And I think it was said earlier, I think it was you actually (gestures towards Weltz) about faith, and then it went into the other scripture, the scripture before you were using, relates to James, where it says show me your faith without deeds and I will show you may faith by what I do. It’s saying that it’s displayed there in action and that it always has been. That same passage that we went to, in Hebrews 11, it’s the Hall of Faith some people call it. And they went through there with God and they did amazing things and it was these actions that backed it up. God was always there. If God is with them, he backs them up. I think that, you know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that it is an amazing thing to the world, and that it is good, and that it is based on biblical principles, as you obviously have a Bible there. That’s wonderful and amazing. But even what I do know, is that, very similar to Islam, there was, right after Joseph Smith was murdered, you know, he was shot, then he was jailed, and then they all stormed him, there was a division. There were people who wanted to follow his bloodline and there were others that wanted it to be by election. And that shows right there that, you know, the church was divided again. If it was from God it would not fail in that sense.
Elder Martinez: And it’s still up today. And if it’s not from God, it will fail tomorrow. We invite you to pay attention to that and see how many things will come up, but God will always support his church. And just pay attention to that because the church will never fail.
Devin: It doesn’t have to fail, and I’m not saying that it will, but there are other people like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you know, that are, like, they’re not truth, and things that are not truth have a tendency of staying around for a while. (inaudible) And you will as well, but the thing is, you can know now. Like lets say, I think it really comes down to-let me ask you actually. (gestures towards Adrian) Do you have a commitment to truth?
Adrian: Yes.
Devin: And even, like, if they gave you proof that Mormonism is true, you will go with it?
Adrian: Yes.
Devin: So I think in the same way (gestures back towards Mormons) if you guys have proof, that what we’re believing is true, and that Mormonism is wrong, would you go with it? I hate to answer for you but I kind of feel like that would be No, even if I were to show you things. In fact, I almost feel like if Jesus Christ himself were to come into this room and tell you that is how you ought to go, that you might not. Because, what do you think about that? I know I’ve talked to you about the Galatians scripture (gestures towards Weltz) that says if we, or any other angel from heaven should appear to you, let him be eternally condemned. What that is saying is, by that scripture, you guys believe that Jesus Christ came back, that’s almost like saying Jesus is to be condemned because he came back and said the same thing a little bit different. He never said he would come back and speak about Moroni or any of those, Levi or whatever, Neph-Neph...
Adrian: Nephi.
Devin: You know, so what I think what you really have to do is realize that there are certain things in the Bible and the Book of Mormon that contradicts each other, and those things, they can’t really be reconciled. And I know because I’ve had my friend, and I’ve showed her, and you know, she agrees with me. I have a Mormon that agrees with me. But the thing is she chooses not to believe it or to follow it and I don’t know why. For her I think she’s just stubborn. I think eventually she will come over. But you know, I think for you guys, if you do have a commitment to truth, and anybody who is committed to truth, like the apostles, you know, you will go after it, you will drop your nets, you will go. So I would hope that would be (inaudible)
Adrian: I tried to print this out so you guys can have a copy, but the printer wasn’t working. But really, if you guys have-well, you guys are all elders, I was going to say if you had an elder in your church, but you’re all elders-if you have an older guy, run this across him. Say ‘We met a guy and he provided a case against Mormonism.’ Yeah, just run it by him. Because I do believe we’re on the side of truth and we’re just trying to help. You think you’re on the side of truth, and you’re just trying to help as well. So with this conflict here, we go back and we research it. And if what we are saying is true, then it will correspond with reality. Same thing with you guys.
Elder Weltz: We understand that and we appreciate that. We know that you’re sincere and that you’re not- Like you said, we are here to pursue truth, that’s what we’re about, and so obviously we know that this is true, and that is what we’re following, and until God would tell us otherwise, then will only follow God. That’s what we do.
Adrian: Well-
Elder Weltz: We actually have to get leaving, like right now. We understand where you’re coming from, and we appreciate it, so…
Adrian: Well, you asked us to pray and I want to ask that of you as well. You asked me to pray to see if you guys were true and correct, and I want you guys to pray if maybe we’re correct. Can you do that? (Nods)
Elder Tiki: Do you guys debate or something?
Adrian: We do debate. We actually co-lead-
Devin: Yeah, he’s somewhat of the debater you could say. I just look into everything. I just like knowing about things, you could say. But like my best friends were Muslims, another one was a Mormon. I’m very much so used to talking to people that don’t necessary agree with that. I really do want to encourage you guys, because I feel that if all of you are so committed to the truth as you said, then you’ll see, because I just don’t want you guys to be living an incoherency with the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And that’s what I showed my friend, and she was never able to reconcile that. And if you guys are, then please come back and tell me, because maybe there’s just something that I’m not seeing. So I hope you guys have a merry Christmas and have a nice ham or turkey or whatever you guys have.
Elder Martinez: Well, is it ok, if we end with a prayer?
Devin: Oh yeah. Of course.
Elder Martinez: You said the prayer last time so you can pick anyone.
Devin: I’ll have you. (points to Tiki)
Prayer and then hugs goodbye.
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